Poker Host-Tournament points-PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION!

Sites (all of them) offer reward points to players in "real money" events, which can be redeemed as a buy in or token for a game, or redeemed in a product from an online store.

So I am Right or am I Wrong in stating the following:

1. If you play a freeroll event and win and gain a ticket into a satilite event you should not get reward points. I say correct you shouldnt get reward points, because no cash was involved, albeit "real money"

2. So you win the 50k Ride and have an entry into a $2.20 rebuy and add on event with 50 other players, with a large majority paying "real money" to enter and Poker Host accepting a .20 rake commission from every entrant. Is the player who obtained this ticket via a "freeroll" 50k ride eligible for "reward points". I dont really have an answer for this as entry was gained by a freeroll and your entry was paid by the host online site ie: Poker Host.

But yet, lets not forget the rest of the pool is real cash from real players using real money deposited into there online accounts.

3. So after all entries, rebuys and add ons in the 2.20 satilite the prize pool after poker Host takes it rake was 1 x 109.00 ticket to the 50k sunday main event, 2 x 11.00 tickets to another satilite for the 50k sunday main event and a 5th prize of 5.00 "cash". The most obvious factor in relation to any cash arguement is the 5th prize paid out in cash. So you win the $109.00 buy in to the 50k event.

4. So what is the 50k Sunday main event, its the sites premium weekly event which approximately 400 players pay $109.00 to enter, poker host takes 9.00 from each player (3600.00) and the balance goes to a guarenteed pool.

As a reward for playing this event you also attract 90 rewards points, all players get it for there buy in.

so i play a "freeroll", win and gain entry into a buy in event, win that event and gain entry into a main event. To me I played one freeroll and 2 buy in events. Buy in events attract rewards.

Lets hypotheticaly say I was talking about Fulltilt Poker and the same occurred, you could cancle your ticket and have tournament dollars, exchange your tournament dollars for cash after a 10% rake discount and play any game and earn fulltilt poker points.

The reasoning is because other players "real money" was used, and there it is cash not a ticket after a second or 3rd game is played etc.

So after winning a freeroll, and a satilite I played the 50k main event. I checked my account the following day and saw I hadnt been credited any points, so i asked the question.

This is the conversation that transpired....which i might add took almost an hour....

Please wait for a site operator to respond.

Chat InformationYou are now chatting with 'Joe'

Visitor: hi joe

Joe: Thank you for contacting PokerHost Support! How can I help you today?

Joe: Hello

Visitor: i was looking at my points ledger and i cant see 90 points added for yesterdays 50k sunday game?

Visitor: am i wrong, blind, i cant see them

Joe: May I have your Login Name please?

Visitor: ***********

Visitor: screen name twinkyninja999

Joe: Allow me just one moment

Joe: I was checking. I see that you play the 50K sunday and that one counts as a freeroll this one doesn't count to earn points because it's a freeroll game.

Joe: So far you already earn 105 VIP points

Visitor: the 50k on sunday was a 109.00 buy in event Joe, I satilitted into it after playing the 2.20 buy in. So poker host did collect a rake, commission from all players in a 2.20 event. hence so one could have a 109.00 buy in

Visitor: it IS NOT a freeroll

Visitor: and a rake commission was paid into the 50k event

Visitor: i have never played a freeroll anywhere in the world where a rake was taken by the host

Visitor: or a commission paid

Joe: Yes i see what you're talking about. let me check

Visitor: thank yoe jo0e

Visitor: lol, why dont you just credit me with 90 points and then we will all be happy?

Joe: I'm Back with you in one moment

Visitor: um ok

Joe: Unfortunally, we can't credit those points in your account due you won the entry for this tournament. If you pay the entry for the tournament you will receive the points. But that one was a prize. Sorry for the inconvinience

Visitor: so why did i pay a rake

Visitor: the 2.20 event was a winning ticket sure, i dont expect anything for that

Visitor: however 50 players all paid 2.20 plus rebuys and add ons in cash, i won there CASH which was used as an entry into you sunday 50k event

Visitor: this was REAL MONEY, not a ticket

Visitor: your arguement and reasoning is misleading players and is simply not viable

Mark: Good evening Mr. Utah.

Visitor: ie: when you play a satilite on fulltilt poker, your can cancle the winning and play other games in tournament dollars, or accept a 10% rake reduction and have it exchanged into cash

Visitor: because its is not sat money, its others players money

Mark: I apologize for jumping into the chat.

Visitor: thats fine Mark

Mark: I am actually following up on the conversation you are having with Joe

Visitor: sure, i understand it confusing

Visitor: if the arguement poresnted is correct you are misleading your client base

Visitor: presented*

Mark: As you state there were several players that paid $2.2 along with rebuys and add-ons, but like he is telling and you also state, those funds were given away as a ticket, from cash yes, but the fees are been collected at lower stages not higher stages

Visitor: true

Visitor: so explain the 109.00 buy in to 50k event

Mark: The $0.2 is the fee, the rake, hence the part that is eligible to receive points

Mark: not the prize

Visitor: and the 9.00 you extract from players

Mark: Since you are not paying for it

Mark: The $109 is the prizepool of the qualifier sir

Visitor: but technically i have paid 109.00

Visitor: because it game from real players and not a "freeroll"

Visitor: its not called a 2.200 R &A Freeroll is it?

Visitor: thats a silly name for a sat game dont you think?

Mark: No, technically you used a ticket won from cash

Mark: The satellite as it states is the prior step towards the big event

Visitor: and the cash went into a poll and was paid out to place getters in a tournament

Visitor: pool*

Mark: The idea is to attract lower players to it

Mark: So under your impression the 90 points you should have receive where to be paid to all players that played on the satellite_

Mark: ?

Visitor: oh im a lower player am i?

Mark: When it comes to play the main event, the idea is to fill up players with a lower stake

Visitor: no the 90 points were to be paid to all players that played in the feature sunday 50k event which had a buy in of 109.00 which included a rake/commission of 9.00

Mark: And the $109 you used came from a ticket

Visitor: so any player who gains entry into one of your main events via a satilite is a lower player and does not attract points?

Mark: it wasnt your money, it was from all other players as well.

Visitor: No, the 109.00 game from players who used cash and there accounts

Visitor: correct it was from other players

Visitor: its cash

Mark: No sir, any player that qualifies through a satellite doesn't receive points for the entry, since he is not paying the entry

Mark: No, its a satellite, for cash you could've played a cash tournament sir

Mark: With cash as a prizepool

Visitor: even though players used cash to buy into a tournament

Mark: How was the tournament called/

Mark: ?

Mark: Satellite right?

Visitor: ok.... so you have a 50k ride, one player gets a free entry into a 2.20 sat game correct?

Mark: It didnt say, $2 buy in tournament or $2 buy in guaranteed tournament

Visitor: this is where the original ticket comes from

Mark: You played on the freeroll then?

Visitor: yes or no, is that what happened first

Visitor: these are 3 different games

Visitor: lets start with the 50k ride

Mark: Remember the qualification process is a series of steps

Mark: The $50k is a freeroll

Visitor: its free, and a good tournament supplied by poker host

Visitor: correct

Mark: that leads into the winner receiving $2.2

Visitor: yes yes i agree

Mark: Coupon to go into the first step of the $50k

Visitor: and then you have 40-50 players who pay 2.20 cash and also pay for add ons and rebuys etc

Mark: So you should have received the points for the $0.2 the fees were according to your interpretation?

Visitor: and this satilite awarded 1 x 109.00 ticket, 2 x 11 sat tickets and one 5.00 cash prize

Visitor: NO

Visitor: so have i got the tournament details correct and prizes , please feel free to check

Mark: Well you say you should have received the 90 points, for the $109 which you won access to, hence using the same logic you should've received the points for the $2.2 as well

Visitor: perhaps i should, but i was prepared to forget that as i did freeroll into this event

Visitor: i did not freeroll into the 50k event

Mark: Sir you did

Mark: you at any moment won actual cash

Mark: you won entries

Visitor: that ticket was purschased using pool money "real cash" supplied from other players

Mark: It is irrelevant

Visitor: lol, are you serious?

Mark: Yes

Mark: You played a satellite

Mark: Gives out access to another tournament

Visitor: and satilite players do not recieve points

Mark: No they dont

Visitor: is that your claim?

Mark: Show me where they do?

Mark: Thats the fact sir

Visitor: ok thats fine, cant see why they would use real money then

Visitor: thats fie mark, i intend posting our conversation into the 3 forums I belong too and the forum members can debate this

Mark: Its a choice you have, you play the freeroll to get into the $2.2 or safe that time and pay the $2.2

Mark: you can pay only $2.2 or safe that time and pay the $109 directly

Mark: Its a choice sir

Visitor: this does not happen on poker stars, fulltilt, bodog etc

Mark: Sir, we have been in 5 different networks, this is how it works industry wise

Visitor: the 109.00 was paid directly, from real money paid by other players in a satlitlite which was a result of a freeroll

Mark: No, they were from a ticket, a coupon

Visitor: thats fine, you have given me an answer

Mark: Bottom line is sir, you were not eligible to receive points from your coupon usage

Visitor: thats fine

Mark: You can pay the buy-in directly and receive the points sir.

Visitor: keep the points

Visitor: thats fine

Mark: Is there anything else I can assist you with today?

Visitor: i asked a question and you gave me an answer relating to industry standards which i totally disagree with

Visitor: no thank you, have a nice day

Mark: Likewise sir



The question is this........WHO THINKS i SHOULD OF GOT POINTS FOR THE ENTRY FEE, AND WHY DIDNT I IF YOU DISAGREE?
I have asked this question on a couple of forums including the debate on fair play and online gaming bills in America.

You know, I never really play sateillites to online events "play a few to live events once in a while" or know much about the industry standard for your question.

If anything, in this case the ticket should have been for $100, as to exclude the rake portion of the buy-in from the ticket otherwise I think you should receive the points because $109 was awarded to you with only $100 going to the prize pool. Thats just my opinion though.

I'm going to look further into this and if anyone knows for sure whether or not sites like Full Tilt or PokerStars award points for tournaments that you satellite into feel free to post about it.

I know for a fact they do. because the 3rd event being the main event was not a freeroll. Its a real money buy in.

Thats my point, Poker host has a flaw in there rewards system and the whole excuse of "industry standards" is simply not true.

I must say I have never been called a lowly player before, just because I like to play freerolls.

I personally play them, because I believe whilst frustrating, they are a good way to hone your donkey and reading skills and moronic betting strategies.

Please look into it, Its not about the 90 points. Its the principle of us as players.

Lets not forget this is also the site that couldnt cater for my deposit.

Sadly very dissappointing.

I have recieved now 13 replies, from various areas, all saying Poker hosts advice and actions are not correct.

I play a lot of larger sats on other sites, this is how i play larger live games generally they only cost me 400-600 to enter. I win them online.

Steve

I contacted PokerStars and they said that they don't give fpp's for any tournament that you enter with a coupon, that was from the affiliate department though. So it looks like it might well be an industry wide thing, that doesn't justify it though.

After looking through your stats it looks like they they don't even consider the $9 as rake at all. I think the easiest way for them to fix this would be to just call the ticket what it is, $100 not $109.

As for him saying that the idea is to attract lower players, I think he meant to say players who play lower stakes, he just chose the wrong words. I know you play higher stakes at other rooms but hes just looking at the stakes you play there.

I do actually have emails from Fulltilt saying they do (not poker stars as you indicate).

If the ticket was indeed 100.00 then I wouldnt have an arguement, I would accept it for what it is. Was your contact aware it was the 3rd game in a string of games and not the initial freeroll or the entry I gain from that, that is NOT in question.

I simply cant comprehend this.

I was speaking to a buddy of mine on the phone today from the CPT and explained it to him, as the CPT events also attract various points for end of year prizes. He said "we give points for satilite events sanctioned by us".

But since the ticket was indeed 109.00, then the players who finished 2nd-4th in that tournament have a grievance. The prizes were 109.00 sat, 2 x 11.00 sat, 1 x 5.00 cash prize. These people paid real money. Its the principle. So 9.00 was stolen from the prize pool by Poker Host. Call it what ever you want, but the system is flawed and it most definately is not in the favor of the player.

I admit I have a 1000.00 bet with a well known player that I have to get 1000 points in 12 months. and I can only use freerolls to get cash to play other games to get points. The second part of the event, is I cant use OPA or OPC games to get money. Only freerolls hosted by the site.

So 90 points is a lot of points to me. I think I have about 110 points. The purpose of having points is I can use them to get into other touraments like 1.00 dazzlers. Then I can amase points at a greater rate playing .01-.10 cet cash games. By the way the bet money goes to the Salvation Army.

But I know when I played games like the 2k braclet races on fulltilt, big double A and B etc I would often trade the ticket for tourament dollars and play other events or cash out less a rake.

A buddy of mine who works for BoDog tells me they give points.

Anyway, I wont die if I dont see the points, but I am very annoyed by the misinterpretations and his very loose use of wording. Its just its almost 10% of my target. I dont like losing!

In saying that, I have asked various other questions to the poker host live chat site, I have always found them polite, imformative, and very helpful (except for me making a cash deposit). I will burn in hell before i send cash to Costa Rica.

Heres a quick cut and paste of the email to and from PokerStars, I didn't say anything about freerolls, just satellites in general.

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RE: Satellite tournament questionTuesday, June 1, 2010 6:46 PMFrom: "PokerStarsPartners.com" Add sender to ContactsTo: "jason schmuch"
Hi Jason,

In this case the player will not be awarded FPPs.

Best Regards,
Ryan
The PokerStars Partners Team
http://www.pokerstarspartners.com


-----Original Message-----
Date Received: Monday, May 31, 2010, 18:43:08 EDT
From: jason schmuch
To: "PokerStarsPartners.com"
Subject: Satellite tournament question

Hi,

I have a player on one of my forums who is wondering if you guys pay fpp's for a tournament that they satellite into i.e "player satellites into a $109 event, does that player receive fpp's for the $9 in rake even though it was from a coupon".

Thanks,
Jason

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I'm not sure about any live events but I contacted a few more rooms to see what they say and I will let you know.

This really sucks, especially with the bet you have going but I really don't think PokerHost is going to budge on this. I agree with you on the chat operators choice of words too but I still don't think he meant anything by it.

Anyway, good luck with your bet and I'll let you know when I hear back from everyone.

Well, your right about Full Tilt, heres there response.

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Re: Other (KMM19247161I15977L0KM)Wednesday, June 2, 2010 2:09 PMFrom: "Full Tilt Poker - Affiliates" Add sender to ContactsTo: onlinepokerads@yahoo.com

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry,

Yes, the player is going to earn points in this case.

If there is anything else we can help you with, please let us know.

Regards,

Lia
The Affiliate Team at Full Tilt Poker

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Original Message Follows:
------------------------

Affiliate ID: jschmuch
Name: Jason Schmuch
Contact email: onlinepokerads@yahoo.com
Subject: Other

Hi,

I have a player on one of my forums who is wondering if you guys pay ftp\'s for a tournament that they satellite into i.e \"player satellites into a $109 event, does that player receive fpp\'s for the $9 in rake even though it was from a coupon\".

Thanks,
Jason

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Your also right that PokerHosts' reward system is flawed but I've been unable to get them to change anything on my own and there obviously not the only ones, as you can see PokerStars does the same thing. I haven't heard anything back from the other rooms I contacted though.

I guess if enough players and affiliates contact them about there terms in this case they might change it but I obviously can't do it on my own, sorry Steve.

Thats alright buddy, I sincerely appreciate your efforts.

As I said earlier, I was only annoyed because to me i had amased 9-10% of my annual bet for 1000 points in this one case.

But I am also a strong advocate for a player getting fair treatment regardless if they are .01 or 1k players etc. A player is a player, and all players play within there own financial circumstances

The whole incident relates to 9.00. personally 9.00 is a piss in the park for me. But to some people trying poker for the first time its a crap load of money. Others rely on points to progress/buy into some tournies etc. Or in this instance that 9.00 was the difference between the 4th place getter having a second chance at an entry satilite.

What is done is done. The problem with the flaw is not enough players will say something, because its a unique case. Not many players can sat-sat-sat and play an event. Statistics say its rare.

Thanks for your efforts, I am very dissappointed in them, but tommorrow is another day.

Steve